The Honest Truth About Healing From Burnout
**Note - please excuse the typos. This transcript was automatically generated.**
Hetal Baman (00:06.695)
Okay, hi everyone, welcome. Welcome to the very first episode of the relaunch of the Global Health Pursuit podcast. And I say relaunch because yes, I launched it for the first time in 2020. Lots of things have happened since then. And if you're new here, if you've never heard my podcast ever before, I want to say welcome.
Hetal Baman (00:38.235)
I thought that it would be really special to start this relaunch with an episode that is almost dedicated to why I decided to relaunch. It's a funny story because I had worked with a career coach.
Hetal Baman (01:08.515)
that I would relaunch the podcast, she had said, I think you should be the first episode and tell your story. And I was thinking about this, about how, you know, what the best way would be to bring about this story. And I remember, I think I was probably in the shower. Like, I think I was probably in the shower.
Hetal Baman (01:38.355)
come from and I was like I think one of my best friends should interview me because
Hetal Baman (01:48.375)
I've always enjoyed listening to podcasts where, you know, two friends just kind of chit chat. And I thought it would be more exciting for you guys to hear, you know, another perspective of somebody from somebody who has been in my life for, oh my gosh.
Hetal Baman (02:11.375)
How many years has it been? Like five years? Six years, yeah. And so I decided to bring on one of my very best friends, Catherine Santis, called her cat. And she's been with me for, I mean, throughout this whole journey that I've been on. And I think it would be the most perfect way to start off, to kick off this podcast.
Catherine Santis (02:11.970)
six years.
Hetal Baman (02:41.375)
talk about. So I want to just introduce Kat. She is just a beautiful person. We met during my time at Johnson & Johnson. We were both in the same leadership program and I remember when she came over to do her rotation in Indiana where
Hetal Baman (03:11.375)
just hit it off that first night. And we just talked and we became like the best of friends. And, you know, just, I have to say, like she's one of my ride ad-dice. Honestly, such a smart engineer, just such a beautiful person. And I think that's why she's the most just the perfect person to get on the podcast and you know, help me tell my story. And so I'm just,
Catherine Santis (03:22.350)
Thank you.
Hetal Baman (03:41.936)
So Kat, welcome to the Global Health Preserve Podcast. I'm so stoked, so stoked for you to be here. And how are you feeling?
Catherine Santis (03:52.550)
I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm honored. I'm very honored. As you said, I have been on this journey with you and it's been full of ups and downs and ultimately it led you to this beautiful moment in your life and so I'm so excited for you to share this side. And I think people have gotten small peaks into it but haven't seen like the full journey.
Hetal Baman (04:19.484)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (04:22.938)
Yep.
Catherine Santis (04:23.730)
you and for this here we go.
Hetal Baman (04:25.395)
Here we go. Here we go. Oh my gosh.
Catherine Santis (04:31.150)
This will be a little different. You haven't been on the hot seat, so.
Hetal Baman (04:36.416)
Not very often, nope.
Catherine Santis (04:37.010)
Exactly. So we'll see how this goes.
Hetal Baman (04:42.775)
It's gonna be great. I know we're gonna like just crack up laughing like every five minutes.
Catherine Santis (04:44.630)
Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. So I want to get this started with a little bit of what got you to this point and what that moment. Well, actually, let me backtrack. When did you feel like engineering was not the path for you anymore?
Hetal Baman (04:49.302)
Ah.
Hetal Baman (05:13.216)
Yes.
Catherine Santis (05:14.490)
fold here, how difficult was it for you to make that choice to leave?
Hetal Baman (05:24.095)
I think that's a big one because you know I have a South Asian family a lot of times you know we kind of fit into the stereotype that you know if you're Indian you're probably a doctor lawyer engineer and so you know going into college I was saying like to myself that okay well I feel like I'm probably not
Hetal Baman (05:53.075)
engineering and it was the hardest thing. Like college was so difficult. But I had to push through because I didn't feel like I had any other options. I didn't feel like there were any, I didn't feel like I had any opportunity to look elsewhere, you know, because I had so many people in my family that were just pushing me into this medical field, into this healthcare field. And so I did biomedical engineering and, you know, I did these internships
Hetal Baman (06:23.215)
that I got brave reviews. Everybody was like, wow, you're such a great engineer. And I was like, oh, okay. And you know, you you hear these things where it's like, you know, you could be really, really great at something, but not completely fulfilled. And that's kind of where I was at. And I didn't really realize that until years and years later, after I graduated college,
Hetal Baman (06:53.715)
I was like, oh thank goodness, like it was the one per, one company that hired me. I was like, oh thank gosh, I like don't have to go home and like I almost felt like I would have left my parents down if I went home without a job. So I was like yes, great. Then you know, I, knowing me I was like, I kind of got bored after a
Hetal Baman (07:23.255)
what is there? You know, what is there to do? And the next obvious step was just to get my master's degree. So I got my master's degree. And then after that, you know, when you're in a biomedical engineering career, the cream of the crop is Johnson and Johnson. And I was like, I set that as my goal. And sometimes like in my head, I was always like, Oh, it would just be a miracle to get into
Hetal Baman (07:53.236)
Like I'd be like set for life. Everything would be great.
Catherine Santis (07:54.093)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (07:58.315)
And that's what happened, you know? I ended up getting into this leadership program, which was even better. Like that was, I don't even know. Like I think it was, in my class, it was only seven engineers that got into this program. So everybody was like, you're the cream of the crop. Like everything's great. Like you're the best of the best engineers. And I was like, okay, my life is set. Now all I have to do is climb the ladder.
Hetal Baman (08:26.315)
I, it was just so interesting because that whole time that I was there, I always felt like an outsider. I always felt like there was something different about me that...
Hetal Baman (08:38.636)
I couldn't put it into words for a really long time. I was like, I don't feel right. I don't feel like I belong. Yes, I'm good at what I do. I,
Hetal Baman (08:52.955)
You know, like I said, I always had great reviews and everything, but there was always something weird and off.
Catherine Santis (08:59.370)
Yeah, for sure. And I think for those of you who, you know, Hettle hasn't shared this side of her story. A lot of the times during these sessions or, you know, what we called residencies that we would have, I always noticed in her this tendency to, you know, kind of, she would just be on her own doing her own thing. It's almost like
Catherine Santis (09:29.330)
took so much out of her. And she wasn't the only person who felt that way. I think there was, I mean, myself included. I think this program was, I mean, yes, great. And it had fantastic opportunities, but it was very much geared towards, you're going to be the next, you know, VP, you know, potentially C-suite engineer, whatever, you know, and so there
Hetal Baman (09:32.295)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (09:50.639)
Right.
Catherine Santis (09:59.330)
that are like Hettle and I, that can be very exhausting because you feel it's all performative, you know, you show up and you just have to put on this like business professional, I don't know, it's just it takes, that's great. Yeah.
Hetal Baman (10:12.855)
And if that's your thing, like that's great. Like if you love the corporate environment and all of that and you love, you know, I mean, I felt like I had, I learned so much from all of these, like from all of these leaders. And, you know, I learned about leadership styles. I learned more about myself, which was great. Like I love these sessions that we had, but then it was almost like after the session, you had to continue.
Catherine Santis (10:23.692)
Mm-hmm, for sure.
Catherine Santis (10:39.470)
Yes, yes.
Hetal Baman (10:42.795)
this persona to like impress everybody and like and make it seem like you're here, you're, you know, I just kept remembering these times where everybody was like, Huffle, you know, like, we're gonna go have dinner here, we're gonna go and, you know, hang out here. And I'm like, I'm just so tired. I'm gonna go get ramen by myself. And then I'm
Catherine Santis (11:03.460)
All right.
Hetal Baman (11:13.356)
I mean, those were just so small snippets of times where I would just be like, no, I can't, I'm not in with this crowd.
Catherine Santis (11:21.850)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it was foreshadowing. I think what was to come, honestly. It just wasn't the right environment, I think, for you, honestly, at that time. I think for a lot of people too, like again, it was great. The opportunities, I enjoyed them too, but it is, I think you hit the nail on the head,
Catherine Santis (11:51.750)
can be really like taxing emotionally and you're just so drained.
Hetal Baman (11:52.877)
Yes.
Hetal Baman (11:57.655)
And I think when you value authenticity and you're not true to yourself, sometimes it just becomes very draining because at the end of the day you're like, why am I so tired? You know, why am I so, so tired? And so because of all of this, I started to realize this in myself and I was like, okay, well, where can I find belonging within J&J? And so what I would do is
Hetal Baman (12:27.855)
job hopping like multiple times until I moved actually this was a funny story. I was so over it at my job at that one time that I was working in orthopedics so I was so over it and this has nothing to do with like my managers or my work or any of that stuff like everybody was just so great but internally I was I was
Hetal Baman (12:57.475)
And finally, it was like, let me try a different sector within J&J, let me try a completely different role. So then I applied to be a clinical sales rep within our cardiovascular division, which was like, you're getting out of the cube, you're working in hospitals, you're like, you know, I was like, I'm a people person, this is going to be great.
Hetal Baman (13:27.475)
So, I applied the next day, the hiring manager calls me and basically offers me the job. And I remember running downstairs to my boyfriend at the time and telling him that I accepted a new job. And he was like, what the heck is going on? And I was like, yeah, like this is gonna be great. He was like, are you sure? I don't know.
Hetal Baman (13:57.795)
Shit was gonna go down. It was not good. Yeah, so then I think it was like a few months after I started getting onboarded into this other role and Man, it was like a downward spiral after that. It was like the universe kind of like saying alright, well you asked for it, you know and I
Hetal Baman (14:27.715)
where I had to drive multiple hours a day, I had to be on, even more on than before, where I had to be on for the physician and, you know, learn how to sell devices and things like that. And it was
Hetal Baman (14:49.895)
It was really taxing. Like it was really, really taxing. It got to the point where my body started to break down. It got to the point where I just,
Hetal Baman (15:02.735)
I couldn't exercise, I didn't have time to spend with my loved ones. I, it was just really, really hard. And I think that's what really pushed me out because it was this job or my life. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was, the universe kind of put two options in front of me. It was like, okay, well, you can continue to do this or you're going to lose all the
Catherine Santis (15:18.750)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (15:31.855)
that you love, you're gonna lose your mental health, your physical health, all of this stuff.
Hetal Baman (15:39.735)
When you look at it, it's like, is there a fair, there's no fair exchange, you know, there's, what are you trying to sacrifice? And it was almost like towards the end of the year in 2021. Towards the end of the year in 2021, I, I was having panic attacks. And I remember one day where I just.
Catherine Santis (15:43.571)
All right.
Hetal Baman (16:08.657)
I've had it. I had it, you know. And I remember, mm-hmm.
Catherine Santis (16:11.170)
Your converse, our conversations also changed, you know, I think during this time where you, you were not, it was clear you were not in a good place, you know, mentally. This job was really taking a toll on you, but I sensed always that there was this pressure to like, but I can't
Catherine Santis (16:41.070)
way that that wasn't an option. It didn't seem like an option, you know, because of, you know, we've talked a lot about this, you know, the way we were raised and the cultural expectations and what it means to be successful in life, right? All those things affect you so that you can't almost think clearly. You ignore what you desire, right? Because you're trying to please, you know,
Hetal Baman (16:49.996)
Right.
Hetal Baman (17:01.996)
Right.
Catherine Santis (17:11.150)
You might, I'm not sure if you were going to touch on this, but I recall you telling me about a specific moment with a colleague and a conversation. And I feel like I really want you to touch on that.
Hetal Baman (17:21.375)
Oh yeah.
Hetal Baman (17:24.915)
Yeah. So even before I talk about that, the thing that you say about, you know, having the family expectation and all of that, like growing up South Asian, it was like, you need to achieve. If you got a 99% on a job, I mean, 99% on an exam, where's the 1%, you know, what happened? I would have these conversations with my parents and it was constantly, you know, you would constantly
Hetal Baman (17:55.095)
school but I can prove that I can do well as an engineer. I can prove that I can get into the best program at J&J. I can prove that it was all about I should be doing this, I have to do this, I need to do this, you know. And I think that that was something that holds a lot of, you know,
Hetal Baman (18:25.735)
they need to keep making their family proud in the sense that, in the traditional sense, in the traditional sense of what's secure, what is perceived as secure, getting a job, having a 401K, and just moving up the corporate ladder. And for a long time, I really wanted that to be who I was.
Hetal Baman (18:56.715)
There was a moment where my parents saw that in me, where they were like, yeah, this is a lot. So they were on my side when I decided to break up, to break up, to break up with my job. Yeah, exactly. I'm not gonna cut that out. To break up, yeah, to break up with my job. And because it is a relationship, let me just say that.
Catherine Santis (19:09.450)
Break up with your job.
Catherine Santis (19:14.536)
You should have.
Catherine Santis (19:21.810)
It is. You spend more time at work. That's the relationship you're in. 90% of the time it feels like sometimes. You know what I mean?
Hetal Baman (19:32.256)
Yes, yeah. And it didn't come until later on where, you know, because I quit in the end of 2021, where I was like, you know, six months later and like eight months later where my family started to ask, when are you going to get a job? What's happening now? What are you going to do? So yeah, like lots of guilt and shame and all of these things that you need to get over
Hetal Baman (19:59.775)
And then this type when you're brought up in an environment where it's like achievement is how you are valued, what you're worth. But the moment that you're talking about, I did have a moment with one of my colleagues.
Hetal Baman (20:29.815)
and just amazing people on my team who, and she was a couple levels above me. And she was the one person who really heard me when I said, I'm not feeling well. I feel like I'm driving too much. I feel like I, I'm starting to have like panic attacks. I'm starting to feel depression
Hetal Baman (20:59.835)
these things. And I remember there was a case that I had to do out in the Lehigh Valley region in Pennsylvania. And I was there with another colleague and then her. And after we finished the case, I remember we went back to our car and I was so I locked my keys in the car and I was like, Oh my God, like what am I going to do? And she was there and she
like let's just call, I don't remember what it was, it was like a J&J, like because it was a corporate car that I had, so I had a number to call if this ever happened. So I called them, they were like, oh we're not going to be here, we're not going to be there for like another 45 minutes. So I was like, oh what do I do? So she actually waited around with me. We went around to, it was really,
Hetal Baman (21:59.895)
we were just talking and I remember telling her I was like, you know, this is, I'm having a really hard time. And I'm somebody that I feel like sometimes I don't show it when I'm in the situation, like when I'm at work, like I don't show people like I'm having a hard time. But when there's somebody that I feel like I can't open up to and that I can trust, that's when the truth comes out.
told her I said I'm really feeling really depressed I'm not I'm not having it it's just it's really hard and I told her I was thinking about leaving and she she said okay well why don't you like why don't you put in your two weeks note it's so funny because a lot of times like you know your colleagues your colleagues at work would be like no don't go you know like what are you doing
Hetal Baman (23:01.516)
I don't have the guts. I don't have the guts to do it right now. Oh my gosh. She was like, well, you know, would you be able to hold yourself over for another year? Maybe even more? I said, yeah, I have that savings. So then why don't you? I'm like, oh my gosh. It like that was something that really stuck with me for a really long time after the situation,
Hetal Baman (23:29.915)
don't you? Why don't you? Like what's going on? You know? Like why am I... why do I feel so stuck? You know? And...
Catherine Santis (23:36.070)
Right.
Catherine Santis (23:39.550)
And then there made you reflect on the why you are doing what you were doing, why you pursued the career in engineering, why the prestige of J&J, all of that, I think you started questioning your motive for doing what you were doing. And authenticity has always been huge for you. When I think of who you are, authentic, that's like the top of mind for me, amongst a ton
Hetal Baman (23:59.019)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Catherine Santis (24:09.630)
things, of course, but like you're a very authentic person and I feel like when you are not being true to yourself, it takes a toll on you. And I think that's what started happening. You know, you weren't living, you, yeah, you weren't living an authentic life really, in from a career perspective, I should say.
Hetal Baman (24:28.179)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (24:30.615)
Right, and you know, I just felt as if...
Hetal Baman (24:37.635)
I had something I wanted to say. It was crazy. No, no, you're good. What was I gonna say?
Catherine Santis (24:37.911)
Oh, I'm sorry.
Hetal Baman (24:45.715)
Oh, here it was. I wanted to say that
Hetal Baman (24:52.415)
When I thought about my career and when I was there at Biosense, or I'm not gonna say Biosense, when I was there at that last job, I kept thinking like, where do I go from here? You know, what's my next move? And you know, in a lot of corporate environments, you have, okay, you have to be an engineer, then you have to be a senior engineer, then you have to be a staff engineer. There's like a set,
a set path for each track, you know?
Hetal Baman (25:28.495)
And I didn't see that for myself. I didn't see that. I was like, this is, I don't know, like what am I doing? Like, what is the next path for me? And I remember like thinking, I was always like, very passionate about global health. I've been, and I remember speaking with my bosses and being like, you know, I would love to work in the global health space. And they would say, okay, well, you have to do five years
Hetal Baman (25:58.475)
that role and then you have to do four years and that, then you'll get to your destination or whatever. I'm like, okay, well, I'll be 45 by that time. What? Like, why? Like, that doesn't make any sense. And I remember there was a time when I actually believed it. I believed what they were saying. And I remember having a conversation with my boyfriend at the time where they said,
Catherine Santis (26:08.663)
Thank you.
Hetal Baman (26:27.635)
I told him, I was like, okay, well, I have to stay here for another two years, then I have to do that, then I have to do that. And he's like, no, like, that's not, like, why? Why can't you just do it now? Oh, and then I start to rationalize, oh, well, I need to have this background, and I have to have this knowledge, and I have to do this, and I have to learn about this. And that's why it's gonna take so long. So I was like gaslighting myself, you know?
Catherine Santis (26:54.114)
Thank you.
Hetal Baman (26:57.735)
into believing that I had to do that. That's the thing. Like, that's the whole, the whole theme of what I was before was I have to do this, I should do that, I need to do that. Whereas now it's like completely changed where it's like, I want to do this, I would like to do that. It would be great to do, you know, instead of like putting yourself in this box of like,
Hetal Baman (27:28.417)
You know what they call it? The matrix. You know when you're in the matrix It's like you have to work a nine to five you have to do this you have to do that
Catherine Santis (27:29.050)
Mm-hmm.
Catherine Santis (27:34.611)
the paying your dues almost to get to where you want.
Hetal Baman (27:37.235)
Yes, exactly. And that's the thing. It's like you're hazed, basically you're hazed for so long until you get to where you want to be. And it's like we're not in a sorority here. We're not an eternity. We don't need to do that. But so much of the world is still in that mentality.
Catherine Santis (27:46.136)
Is that?
Catherine Santis (27:55.970)
And then suddenly people get there, right, to their quote unquote final destination and it's not. No, exactly. Yeah.
Hetal Baman (28:01.395)
and it's not what they thought it would be.
Hetal Baman (28:05.815)
How, it's just so sad, it makes me so sad.
Catherine Santis (28:08.430)
For sure. Yeah. You were talking about how your passion for, I think we were getting into your passion for global health and touching on that.
Catherine Santis (28:24.470)
I think before we get into that, I wanted to ask you a question because you, well, I guess I don't know how we wanna do this. Do we want to get to that point where you made this decision?
Hetal Baman (28:38.856)
made the decision for what?
Catherine Santis (28:39.350)
To leave, should we, I mean, we were talking about that already. I know you said after this question, you know, that your colleague asked about, you know, if you were to quit right now, would you be okay? I kind of wanted to get into a little bit about, you know, a little bit on your sabbatical, like this time off and what you've discovered about yourself in this time off and touch on that a little bit.
Hetal Baman (29:03.255)
Yeah. Do we want to talk about starting the podcast for the first time?
Catherine Santis (29:14.050)
Are you thinking you want to? Yeah, we can. Yeah. I kind of wanted to close the loop on the time off and how that led into your, does that make sense? I mean, this is you, though. You tell me what you want. You're going to have to cut all this out.
Hetal Baman (29:20.396)
Okay.
Hetal Baman (29:24.617)
Okay.
Hetal Baman (29:31.755)
It's okay. No, whatever you feel comfortable with asking, like, that you're the interviewer. Like, so you do whatever you want.
Catherine Santis (29:35.571)
Okay.
Catherine Santis (29:38.110)
Okay, so I think what I want to touch back on is the moment you had this conversation, you quitting started to become leaving, became like a real reality. You then make that choice.
Hetal Baman (29:52.980)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (29:58.838)
Mm-hmm.
Catherine Santis (30:00.110)
Let's touch a little bit on like what that was like, you know, when you left and what have you discovered during this time off since leaving? What's that journey been like for you and how it's led you to now global health pursuit? That's a lot. But me, let's...
Hetal Baman (30:18.857)
Okay, it is, but it's okay. One second, let me just, I'm gonna move over to Ethernet. You're gonna lose me for a second.
Catherine Santis (30:25.416)
Okay.
Hetal Baman (30:36.475)
Okay, can you hear me?
Catherine Santis (30:37.834)
Yes.
Hetal Baman (30:39.456)
Okay, okay.
Hetal Baman (30:42.855)
Yeah, leaving. I remember that, I remember the last day when I decided, like I actually decided that I was gonna leave. I remember one of my colleagues telling me that the next day I'd have to like drive like three hours to like get to this children's hospital to do an ablation, like, you know,
Hetal Baman (31:13.275)
and I just started to have like just a really bad panic attack. I was just like this is not like I don't know like my heart was beating really fast. I remember I was in the car I was driving back home after picking up groceries and because that was one of the days like one of my godsend days where I didn't have to go
Hetal Baman (31:42.795)
and saying, are you free now? Because I need to talk right now. I remember I get on a phone call, I go up Zoom with her, and I said, I think I need to quit. And she was like, okay, how are you gonna do it? So then the next day I got on the call with my boss,
Hetal Baman (32:12.435)
And it's interesting because people don't really ever teach you how to quit, you know? Like, why would they do that? And I remember dancing around that word, because like quit, like I just... Can you imagine like telling your boss, I quit, you know? It's like, I mean, if you were really, really, I mean, I was pretty done too, but at the same time,
Catherine Santis (32:27.652)
Yeah.
Catherine Santis (32:34.270)
It's always that I don't wanna burn a bridge thing.
Hetal Baman (32:37.655)
Yes. Oh, yes. But I danced around it. I said, I'm really feeling really terrible. Like I just, I don't feel like I can do this. I don't think I can do this anymore. And so he asked me, you know, do you want to take a quick vacation? And I'm like, I don't think a vacation will do anything. I'm like, I don't think this is going to work. And then he finally got the gist and was like,
Hetal Baman (33:07.575)
It was like, I put in my two weeks notice, like in December. So my last day would be like the last day of December. And I remembered the last day of December coming around. And,
Hetal Baman (33:24.555)
You know like you know you're you're watching the ball drop on the on the TV and it drops and I was like oh My god, like I don't I'm not
Hetal Baman (33:44.095)
not working anymore. Like what what's happening? Like it's like it's almost like you step into an alternate reality. Like I was like I was like whoa where am I? I'm floating around. Like and that's what I felt like for yeah. I was like okay I'm going to just do whatever the heck I want to do now.
Catherine Santis (33:47.394)
Uh-huh.
Catherine Santis (33:50.690)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (34:14.275)
days because I'm like I'm so tired I just want to sleep all day and watching Netflix and reading and just just really just like a vegging out like really and I remember it was like two weeks after of just vegging out where like a
Hetal Baman (34:43.975)
I was like, okay, now I have to figure it out. And he said, it's only been two weeks. Can you just please chill? Like you just went through a very, very long burnout period. Like you need to relax. You need to relax. I'm like, well, I really need to, like I really need to figure it out, you know? And this is my old programming coming into place where I was so programmed to always just move on to the next step. What's the next best thing?
Catherine Santis (34:54.298)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (35:14.095)
thing. And now that I didn't have a plan or a goal to get to, it was like, what do I do? And I remember Kat, I told you very, for so long, I was like, I'm just gonna get a job as a barista.
Catherine Santis (35:27.450)
Mm-hmm. I remember that.
Hetal Baman (35:30.515)
Yeah, I'm just gonna go and get a job as a barista and no like no um no offense to any baristas out there. I love what you do because like I love my coffee but like
Hetal Baman (35:45.435)
Even that I couldn't do. Even that I was like, I just, I need to just, I can't just fill my time with anything, you know? And it took a really long time. I feel 2022 was a year of like healing and going in words. I remember spending days where I would just journal and meditate and do yoga
Hetal Baman (36:15.457)
just
Hetal Baman (36:18.175)
just think about like what is going on, you know? Like what does the universe trying to tell me, you know? I don't remember hiring coaches, like so I have my career coach. I got a therapist. And it's been,
Hetal Baman (36:42.775)
I think it's been a really, really, honestly beautiful journey because I don't think a lot of people allow themselves to really reflect on what they've actually done and what they've accomplished. And if you're not happy, what I had to do was really ask myself, okay, what was making me so unhappy? What was it that...
Hetal Baman (37:12.915)
change my thought process to figure out, not even figure out, but like move in a direction that could make me happier.
Hetal Baman (37:26.855)
And a lot of it was being in nature, you know, talking to my friends, hanging out with my dog. And in my mind, like my old programming was like, that's not gonna make you money, you know.
Catherine Santis (37:42.690)
It also felt like you were on a pursuit for stillness, like mental stillness, but that was so difficult initially, you know. It's like the hamster wheel thing, you know what I mean? Go, go, go, go. And you don't, it's so hard to just take the time to deprogram, you know.
Hetal Baman (37:43.740)
and
Hetal Baman (37:55.435)
It's so difficult, yeah.
Hetal Baman (38:06.435)
Yeah. Yeah. Cut the wires. Cut the cords. I've done a lot of cord cutting exercises. Where I was just all of the the shoulds and the have tos and all of that, like just cutting all of that. And really, a lot of it is just having faith in yourself, you know. I had to read like
Catherine Santis (38:08.750)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (38:36.535)
There was a part of me that was, it's almost like the angel in the devil on your shoulders where it's like the angel's like, you're gonna do this, it's gonna be wonderful, it's gonna be great. And the devil is like, how are you gonna make money? Like what is, like, you know, you can't just do this forever. Like what's what's going on? And so it was like this battle within my head that was like, oh no, like, oh I have faith but then no I have to make money. Like I have to have a timeline,
Catherine Santis (39:05.070)
to mention the pressure you were getting from your family, you know, too. I know that was a big, you know, we talked a lot about that also.
Hetal Baman (39:06.375)
Bye.
Hetal Baman (39:14.675)
Yeah. And there's no, I'm not like blaming them for anything because of course they have my best interest in mind. It's, and I love them to death. And like, obviously, like all I want to do is make them proud, right? And, but at the same time, it's like, I need to make them proud in my way, you know, on my terms.
Hetal Baman (39:45.063)
before
Hetal Baman (39:47.815)
people are okay with that. I really had to work a lot on this with my coaches. Because a lot of it was trying to protect people from negative negativity, you know, from other people saying, oh, what is she doing? She should know better. She should... I was trying to protect,
Hetal Baman (40:18.715)
that people would be getting. But all I had to do is just really just look inwards and just kind of get rid of the noise. And I'm still working on that. And I'm still working on just silencing the noise that is the doubts and all of the fears.
Catherine Santis (40:28.232)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (40:47.875)
that people feel from quitting, from doing this. A lot of it is just an illusion of security. Kat, you went through this whole thing where it's like J&J just laid off so many people. There's an illusion of security in the corporate world. And so,
Catherine Santis (40:58.812)
for sure.
Catherine Santis (41:07.333)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (41:16.295)
It's difficult. It's just very difficult. Like it's been a, I just tell a lot of people it's been such a roller coaster, but really what's been making me feel grounded was, first of all, I have a lot of support around me. I have that privilege. I have a lot of support around me. But then I also have a lot of faith within myself that things will be okay. Things will be okay. And it's,
Catherine Santis (41:16.375)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (41:48.015)
That's all I have to say. Like, it's just like, you know, just keep the face. That's what I've been telling my coaches. Like, I just got to keep the face.
Catherine Santis (41:50.150)
Aller, allez.
Catherine Santis (41:54.190)
Yeah, and I think you said something earlier, like I have to make my family proud in my way, but I also feel it was, I think you came to this realization that you have to make yourself proud. It's not about making them proud, but yourself and doing it for you. Like, how do you take care of yourself because you can't take care of others or think of others until you address
Hetal Baman (42:12.717)
Right.
Catherine Santis (42:24.232)
out for yourself.
Hetal Baman (42:26.955)
Yeah, that's a big thing because I think that when I was in my last job, I wasn't taking care of myself. I wasn't. I was... I was a really mean person because I was not... I was depressed. I was work... I was being worked really hard. I would come home really late and I would just be very mean.
Hetal Baman (42:57.295)
I was like, that's not me. Like, that's not who I am. And it's a situation that's putting me in this, that's putting this pressure on me. And all I kept thinking about was, oh, where do I have to go tomorrow? Where am I gonna have to go tomorrow? You know, how many hours of sleep can I get tonight? How, like, what's, what am I gonna have to do for dinner?
Catherine Santis (43:31.350)
Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching.
Hetal Baman (43:33.164)
It was so taxing. Yeah, I'm like, what's the word?
Catherine Santis (43:36.350)
Yeah, well, I mean, staying in hotels, you know that, oh, just all of it, I'm sure. That's the benefit.
Hetal Baman (43:42.495)
I racked up titanium status at my Marriott, which was great. I know, I know. I was like, yeah, like now we can go on vacation and free hotels, like yeah. I know, that was the only benefit.
Catherine Santis (43:52.370)
Exactly.
Catherine Santis (43:58.351)
So switching gears a little here. I want to talk about your, you know, global health pursuit. How, how did your passion for global health start? When did that start? I know you've mentioned before that it started with your family. So can you, can you talk us through that?
Hetal Baman (44:25.236)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (44:31.215)
Did he hear his hand out like she was like, wheeze. Ha ha ha ha ha.
Catherine Santis (44:35.226)
I didn't hear her.
Hetal Baman (44:37.275)
Okay, yeah, I mean my parents are immigrants from India. They came over in the 1980s and they had a completely different life in India. And you know, you don't really
Hetal Baman (45:07.175)
understand why they were the way that they were, you know, all the pressures for doing well in school. Education was a huge thing for them. Where, I mean, my grandfather was, he was very different in the sense that he made all of my aunts, my mom and her sisters,
Hetal Baman (45:38.195)
just find a husband and be a housewife or whatever. No, like he was like, you need to get an education because who knows what'll happen, you know? And you can stand up on your own feet. And so that's what happened. My mom became a microbiologist. She was working in a hospital in India. And then she met my dad, which was an arranged marriage,
Hetal Baman (46:07.175)
and my mom, like she had to have a say in it. So yeah, so my dad was a dentist. And then I think at the time my dad was in the US and my family members were like, you know, we found a girl for you. So he came to India and met her. And then they basically like, were like, okay, we like each other, let's get married. And yeah, and then a few years later,
Catherine Santis (46:08.411)
Ha ha ha ha!
Hetal Baman (46:37.215)
mom came came to the States and it's just interesting because I didn't come I didn't go back to India and realize that I was in India until I was 14 years old that was like the first time that my family and I like really went back and like you know did some sightseeing and all of that
Hetal Baman (47:02.095)
And that was the first time that I really, I saw what real poverty looked like, you know, when you was like poverty and corruption, like all the things, because I remember we flew into Mumbai and then we had to drive to Gujarat and it was, you'd be driving on the highway. And alongside the highway, there'd be people like in little tents,
Hetal Baman (47:32.195)
of the road. And in my head I was like, what is happening? Like this is, this is crazy. And um, and then like the corruption factor where like there was police officers who basically pulled us over because we had a good drought license plate and wanted money to let us go. And I was like, what? Like this would never happen in the States. Like this is crazy.
Catherine Santis (47:39.991)
Hmm
Hetal Baman (48:02.175)
We got back and we got to our house and no washer dryer. There was no like indoor staircase. We had a website to go upstairs. You had to use a water and geyser to like it's called a geyser like to heat the water. If you wanted to take a shower, basically you'd heat the water and then you'd pour it into a bucket and then you just like, you know, shower yourself with that.
Catherine Santis (48:28.135)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (48:32.195)
then we were lucky to have like a real toilet in the house. But yeah, like that was like middle class India, which is like, it hit me back then. I was like, okay, like this is interesting. And then
Catherine Santis (48:50.133)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (49:02.515)
when I decided to go on a service trip to India. And at that time, I didn't really know about like, what's a good organization to go have a service trip with and what's the like, what's a good charity? And, you know, I just wanted to go and do some type of good, I don't know, you know? And I always thought like, if I was gonna go back and do a service trip, the first place I'd go to is India. And so that's what I did. I went with the organization.
Hetal Baman (49:32.155)
I'm not going to name their name. And I stayed with a host family, and I worked in the slum school in India. And I basically helped teach English and hung out with the kids. And it was a really good experience, but at the same time after the fact, I started to ask questions around, OK,
Hetal Baman (50:03.435)
What did I actually do? Was this just like a trip to like hang out with kids? Or was I actually making a difference? What was the outcome of this? There was no real, I didn't have like a sense of, here's like in an engineering mindset, it's like here's an input, there's an output, right? What you put in and then how do you get out?
Catherine Santis (50:32.410)
or what the kids got out better yet, you know? Yeah.
Hetal Baman (50:32.435)
You know, it's like work Exactly, that's what it is. And so it's like when I went to like help teach English or whatever Did they actually learn a little better or was I just there to just keep them company? It's just like yeah I did I the experience was interesting also because
Hetal Baman (51:02.075)
me. A discovery trip in terms of, okay, this is what a slum school could look like. This is, this is what people in poverty's homes look like. Little like mud houses in one room. And I remember one of the kids like bringing me to their home. And he was like, hetl nam, hetl nam, come to my house, you know, it's very, very cute. So I said, okay, so then
Catherine Santis (51:26.850)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (51:32.195)
in their house. It was so small. And I was able to really like see for myself how these people live. And after that, I was like, I don't think I can come back with this organization, not because it was hard to experience it, but because I couldn't work with an organization where I didn't know
Catherine Santis (52:02.930)
benefit to society, what was it? Yeah.
Hetal Baman (52:04.575)
Benefit. Exactly. What was the benefit? Was it because I was giving them money so that I could go on a volunteerism trip? And this is something that we're gonna talk about in a later episode. But...
Hetal Baman (52:18.775)
And, uh, volunteerism and poverty porn and all of that stuff is a very, very interesting thing where, um, people are kind of coerced into giving charities money because of these images. It's like, you feel so bad. It's like guilting people into, you know, giving, giving money and all of that. And I just, I was very much put, put off with the, the, the marketing and the branding behind things.
Hetal Baman (52:48.915)
After the fact, I started doing a little bit more research and I wanted to learn more about what different charities were doing, what different nonprofits were doing. And I started going on trips with an organization called Humanity and Hope United to Honduras. And they have a great holistic program. And it was very different because you were able
Hetal Baman (53:18.895)
the outputs and the benefits, right? Your money was going into this type of school. Okay, now we got these many graduates. I think it was this year that a couple, there were like two graduates from high school and they're going to college or something like that. I don't know, but it was, don't quote me on this. It's just, yeah, I don't know the details, but I remember there was a huge celebration because kids were graduating from school when
Catherine Santis (53:37.590)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (53:48.855)
ever been able to. And I think that it's a those kind of experience started to started to give me insight onto what is a good ethical organization that will use your money to the benefit of communities as well as show them in a light that is
Hetal Baman (54:18.795)
Like this was back in 2020 when I started to like just explore. And I remember doing a, I started to write a blog. I started to, uh, interview people. And I remember one interview I was said, it was the first one where I was like, over Zoom and I said, Oh, maybe I'll write this into a blog. And then after a few months, like the interview was sitting in my computer.
Hetal Baman (54:50.338)
Like why shouldn't I, let me just start a podcast. And that was where global health pursuit came about. Because in the beginning it was like,
Hetal Baman (55:01.815)
Oh, I don't know. Like I didn't know anything about podcasts, like back then. And yeah, that's basically how it started. And I started reaching out to people. I started learning more about different, like water equity and poverty alleviation and women's health issues and all of these things. And I was like, there's a whole world out there. There's a whole world out there. And I just loved hearing people's stories
And then just also giving them a platform where people, other people could learn and connect with them. Cause that's all, I find myself to be like a connector. You know, like I, I, I love it when I can say, I know this person who could really help you. Let me connect you. And then all of a sudden they're working together. How awesome is that? It just makes me so happy.
Catherine Santis (55:57.095)
Yeah, for sure. And especially when you know that it's going towards something good for for communities in need and and yeah, for sure. For sure.
Catherine Santis (56:10.370)
Sorry, you were going to continue. I didn't mean to. I feel like I cut your.
Hetal Baman (56:13.615)
No, no, you're good. I, I...
Hetal Baman (56:20.075)
You know what, that's where global health pursuit started. And then I...
Hetal Baman (56:28.975)
time, you know, I was in the mindset that I had to do everything myself. And I was also working. And then, like, like I said before, I got really burnt out. Then I basically stopped doing everything. I stopped the podcast. I stopped working. I really didn't know where I was going with anything.
Hetal Baman (57:00.544)
We came to the conclusion that
Hetal Baman (57:04.435)
I just really loved my podcast. I really loved uplifting other people. And I just loved learning about global health. And she was like, you need to do that again. And I looked back and I said, ugh, like I lost all my old episodes.
Hetal Baman (57:35.215)
I don't know, like I felt a lot of guilt and shame around that too because in my mind I was like, well maybe that's a sign that I'm not supposed to be doing this. And there was a time last year, it was like late last year where I have this poster up on my wall that says Global Health Pursuit.
Hetal Baman (57:59.975)
It was like, you know, started May 2020. And I remember it was on my wall and I was sitting here in my office and all of a sudden it falls. And I'm like, oh no, that's a bad omen. Like that's a bad omen. And I tell my coach this and she's like, girl, it's just trying to tell you to pay attention to it. Pay attention to global health pursuit.
Catherine Santis (58:12.850)
Ha ha ha ha ha
Hetal Baman (58:30.335)
I'm like, oh my gosh, well that means I have to relaunch. I have to do this all over again. And she's like, don't think about it as like you're doing it all over again. You're starting a new chapter, you know? It's funny, I wanted to mention this. Bernay Brown talks about this. She refers to somebody else who talks about this concept of a shitty first draft.
Hetal Baman (59:01.536)
She says that every creator, entrepreneur, person who wants to create their own business or whatever, always speaks of a shitty first draft. And that podcast back in 2020 was my shitty first draft. It wasn't shitty by any means, but it was my first draft.
Hetal Baman (59:30.095)
didn't know anything about podcasts. I didn't know podcast managers existed. I didn't know marketing strategies about all this stuff. I didn't know like how to how to get sponsorships, which I'm still working on by the way. So if you want to sponsor this podcast, please you know contact me. I would love to work with you.
Catherine Santis (59:41.790)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Catherine Santis (59:52.970)
A little plug, a little plug. Ha ha ha ha ha. You have to.
Hetal Baman (01:00:01.175)
Yeah, and that's basically what it was. It was my first draft. And so now I'm kind of like wiping the slate clean and starting it over and really getting strategic and intentional with all of the people that I'm bringing on and the questions I'm asking them and really diving deep into different global health issues. Like the things that I talked about today, oh my gosh, South Asian mental health.
Hetal Baman (01:00:30.035)
how to heal yourself, becoming a change maker, you know? It's like...
Hetal Baman (01:00:38.415)
That was my shitty first draft. Simon Sinek also says this. He goes, the third pancake is always the best pancake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Catherine Santis (01:00:47.251)
This is going to be the third pancake. I want to also say, though, that I think your mentality going into the GHP relaunch is different because before, since you were doing this with your job, you know, you were working on GHP alongside your job, you were, first of all, didn't really have the time to dedicate
Catherine Santis (01:01:14.450)
So I think you had this mindset, even after quitting of this laundry list of items that I have to do and oh my gosh, if I don't do everything, then I'm a failure. Whereas now, and we've recently discussed this, that your attitude has been if I do with this one thing and that's all I get done, then it is what it is and that's okay. And I think that's huge. And that's been, I'd like to say I've seen a shift in you and you just, you're having
Hetal Baman (01:01:27.564)
Mm.
Hetal Baman (01:01:38.617)
Yeah.
Catherine Santis (01:01:44.470)
You're having a lot of grace with yourself, with this relaunch, which is why I also think it's been more successful, like this path that you're taking.
Hetal Baman (01:01:54.495)
Yeah, I think that...
Hetal Baman (01:01:58.815)
you know, when I was first starting out, it was hard because I was still exhausted. I didn't really know what it was. I wanted to take this podcast, like the direction of it, and that's what I told myself. I said, if I just do one thing today, that's gonna be okay.
Hetal Baman (01:02:29.135)
one post. If that's all I can do, that's fine. There's no pressure. And what's so interesting is that with that one thing a day, and of course there were days where I would do a little bit more, I was able to, well at this point, I've recorded
Hetal Baman (01:02:59.595)
with people. I have another one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine episodes scheduled. I think there's more than that. I've hired a podcast manager for my launch. I have so many people on my side and I
Hetal Baman (01:03:26.215)
It feels different. It feels very different this time around. And I'm really excited. This is going to be a really great podcast because where do you find a global health podcast that is super fun to listen to that is really informative, that is just candid, it's not listening to a professor talk for two hours.
Catherine Santis (01:03:52.750)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (01:03:56.455)
You know what's funny? I was talking to a medical student yesterday and she goes, it was a couple days ago, I was talking to her about the podcast and I was like, yeah, nobody wants to talk to a professor unless you're in the subject or unless you're studying that. And she's like, even then. She's like, even then. Even then. I'm a med student. I don't have my professors talking.
Hetal Baman (01:04:22.515)
Yeah, and that's what I want to do.
Catherine Santis (01:04:24.050)
I also think you make things very digestible for the common, like average folk that doesn't know about this. I think I'm looking forward to that as well in listening to your podcast. I mean, even the episodes before prior to this relaunch, I always felt like, oh, this is, they're so easy for me to understand. And versus, yeah, when you get someone that's maybe too focused in an area,
start talking about things that like go way over you know people's heads and so I love just how casual and like Just how casual the conversations are that you have with with these the people your Interview your guests. Thank you. I couldn't find the word, but yeah, it's just so like I Don't know you make it so easy to it's easy to listen to and engaging at the same time
Hetal Baman (01:04:58.895)
Right.
Hetal Baman (01:05:08.595)
My guess.
Hetal Baman (01:05:20.715)
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a global health master's or or doctor it like even if I wanted to make it super, I don't know, technical, I couldn't, you know, I wouldn't have been able to do that.
Catherine Santis (01:05:23.343)
Thank you.
Hetal Baman (01:05:50.515)
is a pharmacist who works in HIV and AIDS. Does a lot of awareness around in the black community. And her title is PrEP and HIV Pharmacists. I was like Cassandra or Cassie, what the heck is PrEP? You know, what is PrEP? And, because the thing is, I don't know. Yeah, so it's like so important, but it's so important.
Catherine Santis (01:06:11.750)
Yeah, I definitely don't, I've never heard of that. I've quit it.
Hetal Baman (01:06:20.915)
The thing is you can't you can't brush over that kind of information like even if it feels like oh like I'm gonna I'm gonna feel stupid asking this like No, you know, there's there's so much that You can learn just by asking just very simple questions and I think that's What I want this podcast to be about like I just want to ask really simple questions There was another interview I did that
Hetal Baman (01:06:50.675)
Lumbi Malambo, she works in water equity within Zimbabwe and there was a part like I was doing some research on her and she hires geologists to study the rocks in some areas. I'm like what do rocks have to do with water?
Hetal Baman (01:07:07.615)
There's a whole thing behind that. There's a huge reason. The people who don't have that background, they wouldn't know. I don't know. I was like, I was like, OK. It's so interesting.
Catherine Santis (01:07:17.870)
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't know. Yeah, yeah.
Catherine Santis (01:07:26.910)
You're asking those questions that people might feel, you know, silly asking, but who cares? You know, that's the whole point. You know, you want everyone to get an understanding of these important topics and not feel, you're kind of giving a voice for those of us who may not feel brave enough to ask some of these things, you know. I'm excited. I'm so excited about your relaunch.
Hetal Baman (01:07:32.417)
I...
Catherine Santis (01:07:58.092)
So tell me specifically, what are you excited about with this relaunch of Global Health Pursuit? What do you hope to accomplish this time?
Hetal Baman (01:08:08.575)
this time around. That's a really good question.
Catherine Santis (01:08:08.655)
Yeah.
Hetal Baman (01:08:13.835)
This time around, I really want to be able to
Hetal Baman (01:08:20.455)
elevate these people even more than I did before. You know, try to really get out to a bigger audience and create a community around this topic. You know, it's interesting for me because
Hetal Baman (01:08:43.855)
I want to be able to build a community of people who are just passionate about global health in the beginner's mindset. People who are looking for causes to donate their money to, maybe causes to volunteer for, maybe even join the team, you know?
Hetal Baman (01:09:14.095)
Because this is really not even about me, you know, I am just the conduit for people to get in front of more people Because a lot of times when you when somebody listens to a podcast all you need is one person It could be a huge donor. It could be somebody who has a lot of knowledge in that specific area. It could be Somebody who just want who has You know a background in that in that country that they want to work in or whatever, you know and
Hetal Baman (01:09:45.215)
I just want to be able to create a network of those people and a network where people can ask each other questions. I would love in the future to have a conference and really invite people from the podcast to do like a hackathon. These are the problems. Let's get together. Let's try to problem solve. Let's figure things out.
Hetal Baman (01:10:13.855)
get some ideas, bring some speakers on and talk about what their latest innovations or accomplishments were. It's just, I think that this is like a really beautiful start to something that's going to be amazing. Like I'm really, really excited about this because I'm not only, I'm giving this my all this time. It's different.
Hetal Baman (01:10:43.955)
I wake up and I'm excited to figure out who will be my next interview or get ready for my next interview or outreach or just learn about what else is out there.
Catherine Santis (01:10:56.552)
Mm-hmm.
Hetal Baman (01:10:59.662)
Um
Hetal Baman (01:11:02.195)
And I hope that people, when they listen to this podcast, they can hear that in my voice, that this is something that I'm dedicating myself to. It's not just a hobby. This is what I want to do. And it's scary to say that. I'm gonna say it, so it's really, really scary to say that because in your mind, you wanna, you wanna, like the devil wants to say,
Hetal Baman (01:11:32.575)
but just like, okay, you can go sit in a corner. Yeah, I ain't listen to you.
Catherine Santis (01:11:36.690)
I'm not listening to you today. You know, someone recently said this to me and I think it stuck with me. They said it's okay to be scared because that also shows that you're passionate and that you care. And so I think you being scared, it just speaks to how you really want this to be successful.
Catherine Santis (01:12:05.490)
You know, you're smiling, you're happy. It's, your whole posture is different, you know, this time, you know, with this relaunch. And I'm really excited. I can't wait to hear the first couple of episodes that you've got prepared. Woo-hoo! Ha ha ha ha! I also just want to say thank you so much
Hetal Baman (01:12:23.275)
The first episode's gonna be this one, just not a saying.
Catherine Santis (01:12:35.290)
as to be vulnerable with me, with your audience. I think it's important for people to hear your story. It's beautiful, your journey. I think a lot of folks can relate to it. And I hope that it also gives people that,
Catherine Santis (01:12:56.870)
they need to take the next step towards living, pursuing something that they truly feel passionate about. Thank you. Thank you for this. Thank you for this opportunity. I'm so excited.
Hetal Baman (01:13:11.675)
Thank you. I love you.
Catherine Santis (01:13:12.210)
I love you too.